Update: Another post in the online group for R1b R-L21 noted another person who had L21 and was not British. This one Norwegian, and mine is directly from France about 1600 to New France in Lower Canada. Another poster has added recently her R-L21 and how he is a New France immigrant from those the church brought as settlers.
Yes, maybe some SNPs can be placed in a place. But, can they be placed in another place also? SEE LINKS BELOW – UPDATED REGULARLY
Are haplogroups an ethnic identification? Some – in the broadest sense.
Ethnic? Well, sort of, but yes, but NO. But yes, certainly, now many SNPs (subclades) are identified to a specific place and even a specific time. There is so much being learned about our DNA and coupled with more and more ancient skeletons being tested there are now many specific genes which will take you to a specific place on the map – maybe a few places on the map. But
But my point to my feelings and my story is because all too often people wish to identify as… Oh, I’m French. Yes, I am Welsh. Well, I am German. I am a Sardinian. And we can certainly say many of the downstream and refined subclades are pin pointed.
Now with more and more autosomal SNPs added and identified – the databases of people from every continent have gotten in on this – I am this or that – the end.
My mother’s father’s R1a haplogroup is wide spread from east and southeast of the Russian Steppes all across Europe and many many of them in Sweden and surrounds, we have guesses that maybe he was from the British Isles and once we see his haplogroup reading refined then we can say he likely left Central Asia a long time ago.
More movement for the haplogroup of R1b – he is everywhere and yes you can refine your genes and might come up with a guy R-L21 (he is a descendant of this R1b) And worse the names here I just used are long from for one and short from for the other – and my point is, this is more complicated than saying R1b – I am British – maybe – but tou also might be any country and any clan from the Atlantic ocean and as far east and you might want to go you will find some of that haplogroup.
But more to say the idea of choosing one country – one clan – applies to very few people we are learning – almost everyone is a hodgepodge of every were.
For many of us Europeans, we only have to go back some ten, or twenty thousand years ago and we, in many of our ancestral lines are every country, every race, every religion and for some of us just a few hundred years and we were everything.
So my title is deceptive, but my heart is in the right place to say we must not think of our selves as being French or Greek or anything – we were Bell Beaker – before that and after we ere many cultures.
R-L21 was certainly in the British Isles – but he was not British in my view – and when you combine him with the 1,000s of haplgroups that were carried by all our ancestors – I more like looking at the movements of all the haplogroups because in some life we were all people.
Yes, this is a European story – but it holds truths for every continent.
I also suggest Jean Manco’s site and see the ancient skeletons who have been sequenced and you will find the haplogroups all over the continent. I am so anxious and excited to see this kind of research shared for every continent.
And what on earth is pedigree collapse – part one.
(Link below with credits, this is not my idea)
From Dispatches from a Vanishing World, by Alex Shoumatoff:
Shoumatoff begins, “…Pedigree collapse is caused by cousins marrying cousins, both intentional mating between close cousins and random mating between distant ones who don’t know that they are related. Close-cousin marriage has happened much more often than is generally supposed…”.
“… The mathematics of descent has fascinated many people. “If we could go back and live again in all of our two hundred and fifty million arithmetical ancestors of the eleventh century,” Henry Adams wrote in 1904 of those with Norman-English blood, “we should find ourselves doing many surprising things, but among the rest we should certainly be ploughing most of the fields of the Contentin and Calvados; going to mass in every parish church in Normand y; rendering military service to every lord, spiritual or temporal, in all this region; and helping to build the Abbey Church at MontSaint- Michel.” And, more recently, the sociobiologist Edward O. Wilson has written, “The gene pool from which one modern Briton has emerged spreads over Europe, to North Africa, the Middle East, and beyond. The individual is an evanescent combination of genes drawn from this pool, one whose hereditary material will soon be dissolved back into it.”…”
I am happy to take all comers and be corrected, but for goodness sake this business of calling any haplogroup a particular society labeled group is just wrong. And, why on earth is this cut off between Asia and Europe – it is just old biases.
All these haplogroup groups and projects seem to share too much information that is very wrong and no one corrects the thoughts. Most of the groups are comprised of people who are often only researching one maybe two haplogroup(s) – often a male researching his own haplogroup, and sometimes that of his mother’s father’s; or a wife or daughter researching for her father’s haplogroup or her husband’s and so her son’s haplogroup.
Almost every haplogroup study group with chat, we read articles about “who” (some religious or ethnic etc group) and “what” (some national or regional clan etc) belong to or are from such and such haplogroups. No.
Certainly, some medical research is being conduct among groups and so showing “groups” to have this issue and that issue and then linking those groups to specific SNPs, but although many of these studies name genes and groups of people we cannot just take this and run with it, it is not valid for other applications most of the time.
Ok, I got it – it is fun to be from the royal house of Sargon, or a Viking, or a Sarmatian, or daughter of the house of Sheba, and lord preserve us, if we could just be an Indian princess or medieval royal one. But these fun facts do not last, the research keeps growing and the data is telling us different things – all the time.
No, maybe not, maybe R1a and R1b did not arise in Europe 20, 30 or 40 thousand years ago, maybe they both are newcomers and hatched about 10,000 years ago and maybe much farther east than we thought.
Early research of y-DNA haplogroup G2a had the males going to the British Isles about 2,000 plus years ago with the Roman Army. It was believed that the UK and WEU frequent R1b had to be the first Britons because there were so many of them today, and it was believed the group that has the most, has to have been there the longest- not correct.
The researchers took this a step farther, placing those G2a to ONLY come from the area of the Republic of Georgia and so these G2as in the Uk MUST have been Sarmatians, the great warriors of the Roman legions who took the world by their great prowess. So I got my husband, my adored G2a, a replica of an antlered Elk found in an ancient Sarmatian grave, several Sarmatian coins of varying quality, and a lithograph illustration of males in Sarmatian clothing, among other peers.
15 years later, we now believe G2a were the early farmers, crossing Europe from the East in the areas of maybe Iran, maybe as far back as 10,000 years ago, or a bit more, and migrated, leaving along the way, large clusters of G2as to also settle in Turkey, and very early in Sardinia on their way west. I have some lovely Sarmatian coins if anyone would like to buy them – I can make you a very good deal.
We must look at studies in context. We must remember that there are many populations that have not been sampled to a significant degree. And it is just these last couple of years that we are learning the ancient DNA being sequenced from archaeological sites and the results already seem to be changing everything.
Every study report should begin with, “the samples from this study all came from X limited group of people”.
In some studies we read in some locations, the mt-DNA appears to remain consistent over a long period of time and it is the y-DNA that changes. This is easy to understand – the marauding males, newcomers, came in, killed the men, and kept the women.
Certainly there have been many “group – clan – national” studies, but they cannot be held up to use as the only example for the world. The ancient DNA from a place for 2,000 years ago and 5,000 years ago does not have the same peoples who are there today in many places.
This minutiae of haplogroup reading is great – wonderful, and yes, let’s build the y-tree but before we assign peoples to specific clans, let’s make sure we sample and add data for all the ancient clans.
We can begin by adding those of the women’s clans, those with ancient names and those with names unknown – Retia and the Venus of Willendorf. I want the DNA breakdown on Antler worshipers and on those who worshiped Mithra and the ancient Hindu G-ds and the list goes on. How about the African Animus followers, how will we read their DNA clusters and which were their predominant haplogroups?
But stepping back and realizing what is termed, the mathematics of descent, we face our own ancestors realistically, (from the linked info below) Roughly 1,000 years ago, each of us would personally have about Two Hundred and Fifty Million ancestors.
Add that up. There were not that many people on earth. So each and every one of us, is made up of almost each and every person. The Africans, the Arabs and the Americans and the Asians will not be able escape this fact of genetics – almost everyone is made up of almost everybody – almost.
But we read in the haplogroup study groups, most people fixating on a haplogroup or SNP, associated with one ethnic group of people I just can’t understand. Let’s at least get these y-DNA ancestral SNPs dated more accurately first, before we label them.
When I look in the mirror – I search myself for the millions of people that I have been – male and female – every religion, every nationality, every creed, every race and just about every haplogroup there is and has been
I want to follow the path of my mt-DNA haplogroup and I want to know what haplogroups she traveled with. Who were her ancestors – their haplogroups H10 is the daughter of H and so on. Before I was an H10 I was an H and way before that a couple mother back I was mt-DNA haplogroup N – what did I do then – who were my friends – then I am mother to many and so care about all descendants.
I want to know about my father’s I2b and my mother’s father R1a and I want to know who their friends were. Who were their favorite ladies – their haplogroups and then I begin to see my own human migration.
I cringe that most of the studies and their maps often cut off at an imaginary line between Europe and Asia. Humans did not cut off there and the studies of haplogroups and where they were, moves farther east all the time.
A SNP (in y-DNA) is a man, a father, an ancestor, a patriarch – give him his own place in your tree – his own slot in your ahnentafel. Born in a desert Oasis or died on a Mountain Plateau we all have known everything – or almost everything and everyone – or almost everyone.
As a semi senile ole senior I am beyond explaining this, but others are explaining this so well – here are some of my favorites.
This page on the wonderful Eupedia (wish they had more Asia and Africa added) first shows a map which, based on knowledge at the time, subject to change, any day and change again, of what haplogroups were where and when.
Many great maps on this page and may great pieces of info for all who want to learn about all the haplogroups in their ancestor’s histories
The Mountain of Names by Alex Shoumatoff – For more than a decade I have said this is genealogy 101 and if you don’t at least understand the first few dozen paragraphs, you can’t start to understand ancestry.
Now that both R1b and R1a are having their original locations moved not only in place but also in time I am throwing our my written in stone – DNA conclusions
The fabulous new Insitome podcasts by Spencer Wells (R1b) and Razib Khan (R1a) and this one is of particular interest for my subject here.
Insitome is a wonderful company with several DNA tests offered
This podcasts are wonderful and there are many places to subscribe to hear all their casts
Looking for the map reference for the oasis in the southern desert – ADD LINK
EXCELLENT additional information about R1a and the East:
“…On the face of it, the single most startling revelation of the Rakhigarhi research may be what it doesn’t talk about: the complete absence of any reference to the genetic marker R1a1 in the ancient DNA retrieved from the site.
This is significant because R1a1, often loosely called ‘the ‘Aryan gene’, is now understood to have originated in a population of Bronze Age pastoralists who dispersed from a homeland in the Central Asian ‘Pontic steppe’ (the grasslands sprawling between the Black Sea and the Caspian) some 4,000 years ago. The genetic impact of their migrations has left a particularly strong and ‘sex-biased’, (i.e. male-driven) imprint on the populations of two geographically distant but linguistically related parts of the world: Northern India and Northern Europe…”
My DNA project is with familytreedna
The French Broad River Families Project
Maybe you and your research can help us learn more about ourselves and in turn you learn also. As we can expand we will.
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